February 23, 2022 / Podcast Episode

Episode 26: Pratima Rao Gluckman

In this episode: Author and Technologist Pratima Rao Gluckman. Immigrant from India, and from Instrumentation Engineering/Chemistry into Computer Science, and from cricket into STEM.
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Episode Guide

In this Episode: Author and Technologist Pratima Rao Gluckman. Immigration journey from: 1) India to US, 2) from Instrumentation Engineering/Chemistry to Computer Science, and 3) from sports (cricket) into STEM. Growing up in a family whose members appeared in Indian national sports teams, choosing STEM, following the examples of role models, immigrating to US and a Computer Science Masters, moving from company to company in tech sector, navigating the visa issues of an immigrant via a consulting company. And finally: interviewing 25 top women technologists for her book “Nevertheless, She Persisted: True Stories of Women Leaders in Tech” [Amazon]. Plus a discussion of how the book came out. Plus key themes from the book! Including: how to negotiate, how to project confidence without being aggressive, being assertive without being aggressive, when to confront someone, mentors vs, sponsors (and how to seek them), and more!

Disclaimer: Third (and last) episode in the India segment of this show. Because India is a large country, the second most populous nation in the world, no single episode can capture the experiences of all immigrants originally from India, and that’s not our goal at all in this episode! Instead, our aim is to talk to technologists who studied, graduated, and immigrated from India to US.

  • mm.ss: Segment Info (Index)
  • 0.00: Voices in this Episode
  • 1.35: Introduction to Episode
  • 3.25: Biography
  • 6.13: Act 1 – Early childhood and schooling, 1970s and 80s.
    • 6.13: The biggest influence on her: a Math teacher who encouraged her through schooling years. Plus Early BASIC programming.
    • 7.51: Computer Science course in BASIC
    • 8.40: Private tutoring in Math at home, and a Math professor
      • “Numbers was always a fascination for me.”
    • 10.10: Hailing from a sports family with national sportspersons (elder sister who was the national cricket captain of India, grandfather).
      • “I was forced to play cricket, and I could walk away from cricket.”
      • 12.10: “My grandfather was a tennis player”
  • 13.33: Act 2 – “College” Years: aka 11th and 12th grade, 1990-92
    • 13.33: Preparing for university: Following a role model to BITS Pilani. Lack of mentoring and not writing the usual entrance exams national IIT JEE and state-level EAMCET.
      • “I remember studying 18 hours a day.”
    • 16.56: Her classmates in 11th and 12th grade (which is called “college” in India)
    • 17.05: Gender disparity in India college and university
      • 17.28: “There were (more) boys… but it didn’t feel like that.”
      • 18.09: “Girls had to study a lot to get a 10 point… the boys would chill and get 10 points.”
    • 30.02: Her observed differences between boys’ and girls’ study habits.
  • 21.08: Act 3 – Bachelors and Masters at BITS Pilani, 1992-97
    • 21.08: Why did she choose the majors of Instrumentation Engineering and Chemistry? 
    • 21.59: First year on BITS Pilani was very difficult for her. Impostor Syndrome. Homesickness.
      • 22.52: “Coming from Hyderabad, and being some of the smartest kids, and you go to Pilani, and you’re like, I’m not the smartest kid anymore.”
      • 24.46: “We didn’t have cellphones.”
    • 24.28: Programming experience in BITS Pilani
  • 25.26: Act 4 – Pondering next steps after Bachelors and Masters, 1997
    • 25.26: Campus interviews by companies, and irrelevant questions they asked. 
    • 26.52: Returning home after BITS Pilani, disillusioned by the interview process, and figuring out next options. Pondering Computer Science as a next step.
    • 27.52: GRE Exam, following her sister to Texas, and applying to US grad school.
  • 29.37: Act 5 – Immigration and MS in University of Texas, Arlington, 1998-99
    • 29.37: Hardest thing to adapt to in the US – not having a scholarship, and taking a loan. Searching for a scholarship.
      • “I didn’t have a scholarship when I came to the US (for grad school).”
    • 31.40: Gender disparity in STEM: When did she start becoming aware of it? 
      • “Only in 2016!” “My sister played a man’s game.” 
    • 32.41: Pondering Next steps after Masters – Did she consider a PhD?
    • 34.35: “If I could do this all over again, I would have gotten a Bachelors in the US, and then an MBA.”
  • 36.05: Act 6 – Differences in work cultures across companies. Based on her experience working in industry, 1998-2021
    • 36.05: “First job was a 9 to 5 job… felt like the beginning of my career, felt like it was the end of my career.”
    • 37.03: Work at startup companies… “Very dynamic environments”. And then at consulting company. 
      • 38.04: “As an immigrant it’s much harder to lose your job in this country.”
    • 39.40: What are healthy and unhealthy characteristics of a work environment? Meritocracy and inequity.
      • 40.54: “Every company (tries to) live up to the ideals of meritocracy… it’s a myth, doesn’t quite happen.”
    • 41.59: First taste of management. Being empowered to build her first team.
    • 44.55: “Influencing without authority.”
  • 47.04: Act 7 – Origins of her book, “Nevertheless, She Persisted: True Stories of Women Leaders in Tech”
    • 47.04: What gave her the idea for the book? A project change at VMWare in 2016, and a random conversation.
      • “My life has been all about role models…”
      • “I always think about those times  when people are not encouraged to go follow their dreams.. Imagine there is so much creativity in this world that we could’ve had!”
    • 51.11: Time management – juggling a job, and 3 kids, family, and then writing a new book project.
    • 52.28: Why everyone should do things outside of work. It’s not a zero sum game!
      • 50.41: “Writing the book gave me the energy to do my work… think of other things you can do that can give you energy and vitality.”
    • 55.21: How did she select the 25 subjects for her book? And the power of networking. 
    • 56.38: The serendipitous story of how Danielle Feinberg came to write Pratima’s book’s foreword. 
    • 58.32: Biggest challenges in writing the book. 
      • “I’m a geek.” “I fired a lot of editors.”
    • 1.01.49: Impostor Syndrome – How does she handle it?
  • 1.04.06: Act 8 – Themes appearing in her book: a discussion with the author Pratima Rao Gluckman. Book: “Nevertheless, She Persisted: True Stories of Women Leaders in Tech” [Amazon link]
    • 1.04.06: Negotiating strategies for salaries and resources for women in tech.
      • 1.04.55: “The technique with negotiating is that if it doesn’t work out you have to walk away from it. People are afraid to negotiate because they are afraid to walk away from it. And have leverage.”
      • 1.05.32: “And for women it’s really hard to advocate for ourselves… we can advocate for others.”
    • 1.06.16: Projecting confidence without being aggressive.  Discussion about Alice Eagly and Linda Carli’s  book “Through the Labyrinth: the truth about how women become leaders”
      • “In the last couple of years we have changed the narrative to “bring your authentic self to work.”
      • 1.07.55: “I’m seeing a lot of male leaders being authentic and vulnerable…that’s successfully normalizing being authentic for women. That’s what women bring to the table – authentic leadership.”
    • 1.08.39: Being assertive (good) vs. being aggressive (bad).
      • 1.08.39: “I’m always being told that I’m aggressive — and I say No, I’m assertive.”
    • 1.10.18: When and how to confront someone who’s misunderstanding your intentions.
    • 1.10.56: Mentors vs. Sponsors.
    • 1.12.09: Asking for promotion before taking on more responsibility. 
    • 1.13.50: How to get a sponsor
  • 1.15.03: Act 9 – Perspectives and Retrospectives
    • 1.15.03: Dealing with Failures and Rejections
      • 1.15.26: “Just imagine a world where you’re only successful. That would be so boring!”
      • 1.14.38: “Job market is like dating.”
    • 1.17.58: Gender-fluidity and gender-free roles vs. Traditional families.
      • 1.19.08: “The partner you pick is very important for your career… and the pick someone who’s going to support you.”
    • 1.20.12: Family growing up: Her Mom was ambitious, and her Dad was an obstacle. Her Mom was unhappy.
    • 1.22.01: How the Covid pandemic has impacted women, and impacted Pratima.
  • 1.25.11: Thank you and Ending.
Featured in this Episode
Useful Links
Recent and Upcoming Episodes on current Season 2

This is the third episode of a 3-episode segment featuring technologists who immigrated from India, specifically from the southern part of India.

Recently in Season 2

  • A conversation with 6 technologists (including 3 startup founders) who all graduated from IIT Madras (Chennai), India in 1998. Episode 24 and Episode 25.

Look for our next Episode 27, where we visit a new country. Upcoming guests on the next 4 episodes (Episodes 27-30) include: a Gödel Prize winner, a MacArthur Fellowship winner (aka Genius Grant) who is also a cancer survivor, and a technologist ranked by Business Insider as #4 on the list of 22 most powerful women engineers in the world.

In case you missed it | Season 1

Season 1 featured 22 episodes where we visited 5 continents, and 7 countries. Check them out!

  • Credits
    • Music Credits for Podcast
    • The caption picture at top of page is of an unknown mountain range, taken over Central Asia. Pic taken by Indranil Gupta. 
 The Immigrant Computer Scientists Podcast is available for free on your favorite devices & apps: Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and many more!
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indygupta Written by:

Professor of Computer Science, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign